This is Episode 4 of The Power Test - the political podcast asking if it's really all over for the Tories, and what Labour should do to win and change Britain for the better.
This week Sam and Ayesha speak with former Home Secretary Alan Johnson and political scientist Madeleine Sumption to talk immigration - practically and politically. Where are we when it comes to such an often divisive political debate? Is the Tory position untenable, and what does Labour really want to do when it comes to immigration - particularly on the numbers? What’s important to keep in mind, and are Labour able to pass The Power Test on such a fundamental issue?
Does Labour really want to reduce immigration?